Quantcast Blu-ray Disc Capacity Irrelevant for Games? - Ozymandias

Blu-ray Disc Capacity Irrelevant for Games?

Was catching up on mail and came across an interview Dean Takahashi (author of several “behind the scenes” Xbox books) did with Sony’s Kaz Hirai. Hirai is the president and chief executive of Sony Computer Entertainment of America (SCEA), and as such it’s always interesting to see how he’s spinning the latest messaging.
 
Overall, there isn’t that much of interest in the interview. The majority of it has Hirai staying on message and attempting to justify the PS3’s pricing and inclusion of the Blu-ray player. (To be fair, most interviews from all the major players just after E3 are the same – not picking on Sony/Hirai in particular here.) However, one quote sticks out, where Hirai answers a question about being concerned about having higher console costs than other manufacturers.
 
“This console is going to do much more. We have made sure this is a console for the long haul. If you look at the lack of Blu-ray on Microsoft, what do you do if the game requires 40 to 50 gigabytes? Put it on three disks? Let's look under the hood and see total value we are delivering to consumers. At five to 10 years, you see the lasting power of the PS2. If you go out there now, there is a lot of PS2 software out there. From a consumer's view, who got the better value? If you look at which console is giving the publishers more time to amortize their development costs, the answer is pretty obvious.”
 
The key assertion Hirai is attempting to make is that next-generation games will require 40 to 50 gigabytes, and hence won’t fit on a standard dual-layer DVD (which has a capacity of ~8.5 GB). I’m just not convinced of this.
 
Earlier this year Gamesfirst did a great survey of Xbox titles and found that the average size of Xbox games in 2001 was 1.81 gigabytes, rising to 3.2 gigabytes by 2005. In addition, they listed the size of four Xbox 360 launch titles: 

  • Condemned: 3.9 GB
  • Madden 06 NFL: 3.3 GB
  • Dead or Alive 4: 5 GB
  • NBA 06: 4.5 GB

To quote the article (which is well worth a read):
 
“Over the course of its life, the size of the average Xbox title increased by 77%. If the Xbox 360 size increases at the same rate, and the four 360 titles are representative of the whole, we can expect the average Xbox 360 title in 4 or 5 years to be around 7.40 gigs, and to occupy about 87% of the disc's capacity. If the largest game deviation is the same as the Xbox, with the largest game being 3 gigabytes larger than the 2005 average, then games will be exceeding the upper limit of what the medium is capable of.

However, if the proportions hold true between systems, such limitations will only effect about 3% of games made for the Xbox 360. Additionally, we'd guess that if you look at those 26 titles that exceed average size on the Xbox, you'd find that size is not an indicator of quality, either in graphical quality or storyline. No one would accuse Doom 3 of being worse looking than Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines, but it's almost 3 gigabytes smaller (Terminator 3: 5.67 gigs; Doom 3: 2.957 gigs). Half-life 2, for example, is only 2 gigabytes.”
 
I’m willing to buy that there will be some games this generation that won’t fit on a standard 8.5 GB DVD-9. But I think we’re still a few years away from seeing many of them hit the market, and when I see games on the scale of Bethesda’s Elder Scrolls: Oblivion come out, I just don’t see the concern. Frankly, even if we look ahead to a future when there are some games that don’t fit on a single disc, I personally don’t see why it’s such a big deal to get up for one out of every twenty (fifty? hundred?) games and swap the disc once every few hours. We do this today every single time we watch a new movie, right?
 
So why, then, is Hirai pushing Blu-ray so hard? There are two reasons:

The first is that Blu-ray is really a “bet the company” strategy for Sony. I won’t go into too much detail here since this article from Forbes does it so well, but Sony’s best chance to escape their financial straits lies in the royalties they can potentially reap from Blu-ray (using the PS3 as a Trojan horse to try and drive adoption of the format).
 
Second, Blu-ray is now one of the only differentiating aspects between the Playstation 3 and the Xbox 360 (a hard drive in every box and HDMI on the high-end $600 PS3 SKU being the other two differences of note). Although Sony has tried to position the PS3 as a quantum-leap beyond the Xbox 360, it’s become pretty obvious (at least to core gamers) that the boxes basically have the same capabilities, with the exception that one is coming out a year later and costing more. (For what it’s worth, I’d really hate to be the PR/marketing guy trying to come up with the side-by-side comparison checklist at Sony… but I digress.)

So size doesn’t appear to matter right now (at least for games). Yet right now it appears Sony is on a path to burden both the PS3 and publishers with the extra cost of supporting Blu-ray. Duplicating a Blu-ray disc will cost more than duplicating a DVD. We can quibble about how much more, but no one is going to argue that it’s not more expensive to duplicate a new medium with new manufacturing hardware and processes (as well as dealing with lower volumes initially). And as we’ve established, the vast majority of games simply don’t need the space that Blu-ray affords right now. The most interesting thing is that it appears Sony (as one of the key stakeholders of the Blu-ray specification) knows it, too.

In an interview with Jim Cardwell, president of Warner’s home video arm, he makes the following interesting statement about the Blu-ray specification:

"We wanted the player to be capable of playing back a [9GB] high-definition red-laser disc, which we call BD-9," says Cardwell. "[The disc] would have a high enough capacity for our movies, and it would have a lower cost than the [25GB] BD-25. The advantage would be lower costs to manufacture the disc, because it could be manufactured on existing [DVD production] lines. Certainly, most of our movies will fit on a BD-9. The issue will be how much enhanced content will we put on there. For basic movies, most will fit on BD-9.

Although the Blu-ray Disc Association has not formally announced the format, Cardwell reports that it has "been proposed and accepted by the BDA."

So, a BD-9 disc is nothing more than a dual-layer DVD with roughly 9 GB of capacity, manufactured on the same processes, and read by a red laser… but still called a Blu-ray disc (thanks to using a different codec to decode the content). Capacity-wise, the disc is basically the same as a dual-layer DVD-9 (at 8.5 GB), but is cheaper to manufacture thanks to being made on a well-known and tested manufacturing process.

It’ll be very interesting to look back at the game discs from the PS3 launch and see just how many actually were “real” Blu-ray discs (25 GB+), and how many are BD-9 discs (~8.5-9 GB, or basically identical in size to dual-layer DVD-9). My guess is that we'll see a lot of BD-9s, allowing Sony to claim a huge Blu-ray launch, bolster the Blu-ray momentum message, and at the same time mollify publishers who aren’t willing to subsidize Blu-ray manufacturing costs. Even if the majority of discs are BD-25 and above, the key will be to look back after launch and see just how many of those games actually needed more than 8.5 GB. (Note that I’m talking about the core game, and not filler “making of” HD videos or movie trailers designed to push the game's "content" over 25 GB.)

My guess? None. And unfortunately, that means a lot of gamers will have to pay for an high-definition drive that they didn’t really need or care for. To be fair, some will enjoy it for HD movies, but I’d rather have the choice myself.

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Comments

nklnch said:

This article completely ignores layer switch times. Drives can seek within a single layer very quickly but to change layers, drives take a huge ~3 second delay (which can be noticed on some movies). That's OK for movies which access data in a very predictable linear fashion, but games access data in a more random less predictable manner.

The 4.7GB single-layer capacity for DVD9 is the more relevant figure. Even current games are already at that limit. Many game developers have said that increased storage capacity is important and I believe them.

# July 11, 2006 12:45 PM

Ozymandias said:

Not sure layer switch times are relevant here. After all, games have been using dual-layer DVDs with Xbox and Playstation 2 for 5+ years. They just do their loads behind the scene and deal with whatever data bandwidth characteristics the drive has. (Developers also have tools that allow them to lay out the data in a better order as well, which helps reduce any issues.)

Since we can't ignore that 100s of games from the last generation have made dual-layer DVDs work (including the layer switching), we return back to whether ~8.5 GB of data is enough for next-gen games. I posit yes. :)

# July 11, 2006 3:59 PM

Enzo304 said:

I really don't care all that much for this "next-gen" of discs.  I'm not very excited about having just a 2x or 4x Blu-Ray drive in my PS3 (who knows how long I'll wait to get it... probably 6 months like I waited for the 360 to get the "bugs" out).

The idea of having more than enough space is good, but if I have to wait 65,345 years just for a level to load, I might have to send hate-mail to Sony.  Hopefully load times stay low, and publishers can find extra things to fill that 25 or 50 gig's.

(Will get the HD-DVD drive for my 360 when it comes out too).

# July 11, 2006 8:36 PM

Eastbeast314 said:

Great read! Can't wait for more! These MS blogs are great for the hardcore.

*bookmarks blog*

# July 11, 2006 9:54 PM

Loraan said:

Warning: take my tirade with a grain of salt. I don't wear my glasses when I watch TV... so that shows you how much I care about HD in general.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand... I have to admit I great deal of disinterest in the whole HD-DVD/Blueray business. I am interested in the story mainly for entertainment value. It's fun watching the technology and media companies trying to get people excited about their specific formats when the people who have $600 to spend on a player (never mind the couple of grand for a good plasma screen) well remember the VHS/Beta fiasco. When you combine the DVI -> HDMI -> HDMI with HDCP business with this pointless format war, I just think you have to be crazy, childless, or both to be an HD early adopter (I'm looking at you, André).

As for Sony and the PS3 in particular, I have to say I don't understand their thinking here (but, given their decisions to keep flogging Memory Stick, I guess that's par for the course). If the PS3 is really meant to be a Trojan Horse for Blueray, I have to say $600 is a bit much (by the way, I don't recall Homer saying that the Greeks charged the Trojans $600 to pull the horse into the city). Whatever happened to "give away the razor, sell the blades?" I can imagine the conversations in Fry's when the PS3 comes out:

"Honey, let's buy a PS3! We can play this first person shooter which was originally going to be on the PS2 but which the producers ported to the PS3 in a hurry to get a launch title, _and_ we can watch this Blueray version of _Little Man_! It comes with the console!!!!"

"How much does it... $600! Oh my God! I've got a better idea, _dear_ let's use the money to fix the car!"

As for the games using up all that space, I just don't see the point. 40 or 50 gigs is insane! What are they going to put in there? I mean, when game producers can't be bothered to hire proof-readers who actually know English or writers who can... well... write, trying to bump up the amount of HD cinematics the disc can hold seems to be getting a bit ahead of the game. Yes, I'm sure Square-Enix (or whatever the hell they're called now) will produce some really pretty HD cinematics, but you know it's just going to be more crazy Japanese *** about Gaia and some monster/goddess/high school student with tentacles (and you'll have to play three hours between save points just to get to it). So, is it really going to be worth the bother?

I don't care about the machine. I don't care about the resolution of the video. I care about the content of the game. Is it fun to play, or do I want to strangle whoever designed the controls or wrote the script? The most fun I've had with a video game in the past couple of years has been Katamari, and I think we all know there is nothing remotely HD about Katamari's graphics (although the cinematics _were_ breathtaking).

# July 11, 2006 10:24 PM

Mattias said:

Very well written article. I had to register just to say that ;)

# July 12, 2006 4:28 AM

TickTock said:

Ozymandias - Layer switch times can be very relevant when you're streaming data. It's increasingly rare that all your data can be pre-loaded so as to avoid subsequent disc access. This doesn't matter so much if you can predict when and where data will be needed, but if you can't i.e. if you have a big open world where the player can go anywhere anytime, or where any assets can be required anywhere, then having your data access mostly localised on one layer is preferable. I know you can be smart about it, but there's only so far smarts will get you before you simply run up against the disc's limitations.

On a general note, I think we should just listen to what developers say. Where they have commented on it, most have pointed to DVD being an issue - and it's not just developers with a taste for CG cutscenes. The art director working on The Darkness recently noted that he thought DVD on 360 was a big problem, and they're not exactly working on a CG-heavy game (or even a big open-world one either).

I get the impression that for many developers, DVD will be OK in the short term - with a lot of work. But these machines are meant to last 5+ years..

# July 12, 2006 5:54 AM

nklnch said:

Of course dual-layer DVD games can be done; I own and have played several of them. My point was that there are very significant drawbacks and complexities to having game data split between two separate layers. The extra storage gained when moving to a dual layer disc isn't as usable as extra storage on a contigous single layer disc.

Of course loading is often done in the background, and there are developer tools to assist with data layout, loading strategies, buffering schemes, and all kinds of things. But, it is very unlikely to build a real time game that uses real time data streaming to stream and buffer game assets in a non-linear fashion that are distributed across multiple layers. And while developer tools can simplify issues, they don't eliminate those kinds of hardware limitations.

From Dan Houser, Creative VP, on GTA, in 2004:

"The danger is currently the storage medium (DVD), and one we thing we’re all praying for in the next round of hardware is that they don’t just go, ‘It’s DVD again’. We’ve done some clever stuff with compressing it, but we were virtually full on the disc with Vice City – this time we’re overfilling the disc to the max."

# July 12, 2006 6:02 AM

STANNY said:

A great article that, and an interesting read.

We were lead to beleive tho that the larger media was not needed for xbox 360 asit is capable of procedural synthesis or whatever it is. Not sure i know what im talking about but thats what i remember reading somewhere.

# July 13, 2006 3:28 PM

Bryan said:

Back (in March?) when Microsoft announced XNA Build, they also showed that by porting MechCommander 2 to the system, they discovered that 40% of the textures shipped weren't actually used during gameplay. What does that mean in terms of megabytes? Also, does Microsoft have enough data yet to have any estimates as to what the average savings will be across all games (or perhaps how they vary by genre)? Brian Keller has a good discussion (here: http://blogs.msdn.com/briankel/archive/2006/01/24/517071.aspx), but that's from January and I'm curious if any more can be said with several months more of progress.

# July 15, 2006 6:50 PM

Travis said:

While it's interesting to monitor game asset growth over time, you can't ignore the fact that Tecmo's Itagaki has *already* stated that he has had to trim back assets in order to fit everything onto DVD.  

Also, since the 360 has a top display resolution of 720p/1080i, its games can get away with smaller textures in comparison to a game that will require support for 1080p.

# July 20, 2006 7:08 AM

RaZoRsharp1987 said:

Personally i welcome games to come in the two or three disc flavour, a single player game disc and online live game disc would be best and minimise switching.

Plus who remembers all those dissapointing collectors edition sets they got for the extra five pounds/dollars. With an extra disc in it. If it costs that much for another dvd disc developers should put actual game content on it instead of a Rare theme, "How we made a polygon" movies and music credits.

# July 20, 2006 10:05 AM

Tephlon said:

Travis said: "Also, since the 360 has a top display resolution of 720p/1080i, its games can get away with smaller textures in comparison to a game that will require support for 1080p."

I think it's been said and proven, more than once, that the PS3 (which you undoubtedly must be referring to) won't use the 1080p for video games (at least not full release, AAA titles), at least not for a while.  If the game/console does somehow support it, it will simply upscale a 720p output to 1080p (ie, Gran Turismo 4 HD).  The textures on the disc will be for a 720p output... not a 1080p.  The size should remain the same as say... X360 textures?  Even so, when (if) games are ever made geared towards 1080p the texture sizes wont be a 10 gig difference.  You will see a nominal size increase.  

I'll take a fast DVD-9, 8.5gb disc over a wretchedly slow 25gb BR disc any day.  The time I save on load times can be used on other things more important.  And even if a few of those saved seconds are eventually used on switching a disc out once through a game, I'll still come out ahead.

I still say you'll see that this 'more space' debate is a little ahead of it's time.  Hell, World of Warcraft is installed and uncompressed on my hard drive at merely 4 gig.  What game will have more content than that... at least anytime soon?

No, I think the next-gen disc format war needs to be fought elsewhere if it needs to be fought.  We are fine with 8.5gb for games for the next several years.  

But instead, Sony is bringing the gamers into this fight.  A fight most gamers don't care to be in.  And where choice can be given, it should be given.  Microsoft understands this.  Sony doesn't.  I don't need a damn wireless adapter, a card reader, or a HD disc player on my console, so I didn't pay for it.  Microsoft gave me that choice, and I saved money.  Why is Sony forcing me into all this unnecessary crap I don't want?  

Ohh wait, its a computer?  Strangly enough, I already have one of those!  And I don't want my console to be my PC.  They're distinguishly different for a reason.  I think Sony's shooting itself in the foot to make (or claim to make) a device that's both.

nklnch said: "My point was that there are very significant drawbacks and complexities to having game data split between two separate layers. The extra storage gained when moving to a dual layer disc isn't as usable as extra storage on a contigous single layer disc."

I think you're greatly over-exaggerating the "drawbacks and complexities" of a dual layer DVD.  DVD players are FAST.  Developers have been using them for years, and any issues that come from moving into the dual-layer segment is regularly and readily overcome.  In any case, what extra troubles (ie, costs) it takes to take a game to a dual layer DVD CANNOT possibly exceed the costs of production on the monster that is the cell, or the extra cost of the Blu-Ray drive and it's media.  Whatever advantage it has in storage (which, again, is arguably even necessary for gaming) isn't worth it's cost.  At least not yet.

The Dual layer argument is hardly valid.

oz, I love the blog.  Keep it up mate!

-Teph

# July 20, 2006 1:10 PM

Tephlon said:

"NOTE:  ARGH!  Somehow my cursor shifted and my post got a little out of order.  Read it below instead.  It should be a bit more... fluid."

Travis said: "Also, since the 360 has a top display resolution of 720p/1080i, its games can get away with smaller textures in comparison to a game that will require support for 1080p."

I think it's been said and proven, more than once, that the PS3 (which you undoubtedly must be referring to) won't use the 1080p for video games (at least not full release, AAA titles), at least not for a while.  If the game/console does somehow support it, it will simply upscale a 720p output to 1080p (ie, Gran Turismo 4 HD).  The textures on the disc will be for a 720p output... not a 1080p.  The size should remain the same as say... X360 textures?  Even so, when (if) games are ever made geared towards 1080p the texture sizes wont be a 10 gig difference.  You will see a nominal size increase.  

nklnch said: "My point was that there are very significant drawbacks and complexities to having game data split between two separate layers. The extra storage gained when moving to a dual layer disc isn't as usable as extra storage on a contigous single layer disc."

I think you're greatly over-exaggerating the "drawbacks and complexities" of a dual layer DVD.  DVD players are FAST.  Developers have been using them for years, and any issues that come from moving into the dual-layer segment is regularly and readily overcome.  In any case, what extra troubles (ie, costs) it takes to take a game to a dual layer DVD CANNOT possibly exceed the costs of production on the monster that is the cell, or the extra cost of the Blu-Ray drive and it's media.  Whatever advantage it has in storage (which, again, is arguably even necessary for gaming) isn't worth it's cost.  At least not yet.

The Dual layer argument is hardly valid.

I'll take a fast DVD-9, 8.5gb disc over a wretchedly slow 25gb BR disc any day.  The time I save on load times can be used on other things more important.  And even if a few of those saved seconds are eventually used on switching a disc out once through a game, I'll still come out ahead.

I still say you'll see that this 'more space' debate is a little ahead of it's time.  Hell, World of Warcraft is installed and uncompressed on my hard drive at merely 4 gig.  What game will have more content than that... at least anytime soon?

No, I think the next-gen disc format war needs to be fought elsewhere if it needs to be fought.  We are fine with 8.5gb for games for the next several years.  

But instead, Sony is bringing the gamers into this fight.  A fight most gamers don't care to be in.  And where choice can be given, it should be given.  Microsoft understands this.  Sony doesn't.  I don't need a damn wireless adapter, a card reader, or a HD disc player on my console, so I didn't pay for it.  Microsoft gave me that choice, and I saved money.  Why is Sony forcing me into all this unnecessary crap I don't want?  

Ohh wait, its a computer?  Strangly enough, I already have one of those!  And I don't want my console to be my PC.  They're distinguishly different for a reason.  I think Sony's shooting itself in the foot to make (or claim to make) a device that's both.

oz, I love the blog.  Keep it up mate!

-Teph

# July 20, 2006 1:16 PM

Mark DeLoura said:

hello sir!  That was a very well written piece but saying there's no need for the size of a Blu-Ray disc totally blows me away.  It's one of the fundamental tenets of programming that software will always wind up filling memory, and a corollary is that it will always wind up filling the disc.

Initially in the PS2 generation many games were published on CDs, which meant they were less than 700 megabytes.  Toward the end of the lifecycle of PS2, some titles ship on DVD-9 discs, so they are between 4.4 and 7.9 GB.  Let's say they average around 4.9, which is a 7x increase in size conservatively.

If the average X360 title now is around 4GB, wouldn't you optimally desire a medium that could hold at least 28GB in order to be future-proof?

Further, given that developers like to put multiple copies of their data around the disc in order to reduce seek time, wouldn't you actually want MORE space than that?

# July 21, 2006 3:44 PM

J said:

Great article. To those who think we're going to need 25+ GB right away, I have one word: Compression.

That is all.

# July 23, 2006 11:40 AM

philantr0py said:

That's really well written Ozy, and I don't think Sony's machine will be ANY better than the Xbox 360, simply because it uses Blue-Ray.. Sony still doesnt understand that it's software, not hardware that makes a console.. Is an SD Card Reader and Dual HDMI really neccessary?  and have Sony even figured a way of offering an online system that can come close to Xbox Live? my money says no.

HDTV, HDMI, 1080p? pha! 720p games look awesome.. and I'm sure not everyone in the world has a 1080p HD display.. and even if they do, my guess is that Sony won't be offering 1080p content in a lot of their games.. but let's see.

It's all about software people! Where's my PSP today? and how does PSP sales compare to DS Sales.. DS outsold PSP by Millions, and the moral of that story is that hardware without the software and connectivity is just plain boring.

As for Mark.. well I hope you move over to Microsoft's camp ;-)

Sony's Loss.

PS - My PSP has long since been discarded, great games and connectivity mean more (at least to me) than shiny hardware.

# July 24, 2006 2:59 PM