Quantcast [Update] XFire Sues over GameSpy Comrade... But Why? - Ozymandias

[Update] XFire Sues over GameSpy Comrade... But Why?

News on the web today is that Xfire is suing GameSpy for how their GameSpy Comrade "Buddy Sync" feature creates friends lists. To quote:

Now Battlefield 2142 is caught up in a legal tangle between rival in-game instant messaging programs Xfire and GameSpy Comrade. On October 16, Viacom-owned Xfire filed suit against News Corp subsidiary IGN Entertainment over its GameSpy Comrade program, which comes on the Battlefield 2142 disc. IGN Entertainment also owns IGN.com, a GameSpot competitor.

Xfire is claiming that GameSpy Comrade's "Buddy Sync" feature illegally infringes on its copyrights. Buddy Sync retrieves users' friends lists from other instant messaging programs like AOL Instant Messenger and Xfire, and gives players the option of automatically inviting those friends who have GameSpy accounts to join the users' friends lists on Comrade.

If you read a bit deeper you find that what's basically being challenged is GameSpy's use of information (friends lists) that has been publicly published by Xfire on their website. Xfire claims that GameSpy's reading of that data is to enable GameSpy to bolster their own friends lists:

In a filing in support of the restraining order, Xfire CEO Michael Cassidy specified how his company believes the Comrade program works. First, Cassidy said it reads the user's Xfire handle from the XfireUser.ini file, then visits a formulaic URL on the Xfire site to get a list of the user's friends (for instance, to find the friends list of Xfire user Aragorn, Comrade would go to http://www.xfire.com/friends/aragorn). The names on that friends list are then compared with a central IGN database of Comrade users' Xfire handles, and if any matches turn up, the user is asked if they want to invite those people to their Comrade buddy lists.

I am not a lawyer, and can't definitively comment on whether information that's made public in this fashion can or cannot be harvested. My gut is that it's probably kosher - we have plenty of website scraping applications in the wild today that do just this, including best price searching sites. What does fascinate me is how this suit highlights how busted Sony's PS3 online network is, and how companies are fighting to position themselves to take advantage of this financially. Bet that seemed to come out of right field. Wink But here's where I'm coming from.

I wrote earlier about why Sony's enabling of Xfire for PS3 games wasn't as exciting as it might seem. Take a read, and then let's talk about just what the experience of being an online user on PS3 is likely to be like.

So I buy my PS3, bring it home, and go online. The first thing I'm going to be asked to do is create some sort of Sony Network ID. That "Sony ID" will apparently bring basic presence and communication features via the crossbar interface. So far so good. Now I decide to play Insomniac's Resistance, which recently stated the following:

Insomniac's Ted Price: "The buddy list is specific to Resistance. And we decided not to bother people in-game with messages. If you have a new message sent to you while you're in a game, you'll see your "buddy list" tab flashing when you re-enter the lobby after playing a game. The buddy list tab is where you can access your friends, ignore list, messages, etc."

1Up (to reader): "Does this mean there's a system-wide friend's list, but you have to compile game-specific friends lists for each online game you participate in? That doesn't make much sense, and hopefully today's event will clear up the situation."

Yes Virginia, that's exactly what this means. Even though I already have a "Sony ID", I may have to create a new "Resistance ID" to play. And then start thinking about just how broken the experience is when you try to invite someone to a game. Do you send it via the Resistance UI? What screenname do I send it to? If I want to add you to my "Sony ID" friends list, do I need to send you an in-game message to ask you what your real "Sony ID" name is? What about game invites? How does that work across even just these two IDs?

You think that's bad? Now let's open up a few more games from different publishers. Each of these publishers had to make a choice of what online interface to use - again, because Sony's online network just isn't ready. So they'll choose between writing their own (as did Insomniac for Resistance), or perhaps licensing Xfire, or GameSpy, or Quazal, or Demonware. So now we have five potential networks with different namespaces, and an inherent  lack of ability to communicate (chatting, voice, invites, finding friends, etc.) between them, and even across to just the "Sony ID" namespace. Think we're done? Nope... what happens if each publisher doesn't stick with the same online solution for all of their games? This is very likely as most publishers use different developers - so even across a single publisher, you may find fragmented communities.

The only consistent tie all of these different community fragments has is that a user should always have their Sony ID. That gives you a lifeline to be see friends when they are online... but only in the crossbar UI. Will you even be able to see what game they're playing? What about what network that game uses, and whether that friend is logged into it? How will you get messages in a timely manner? Remember Ted Price's quote above? "And we decided not to bother people in-game with messages. If you have a new message sent to you while you're in a game, you'll see your "buddy list" tab flashing when you re-enter the lobby after playing a game." Doesn't sound like a user-centric design decision to me.

So... back to Xfire and GameSpy. I said earlier this suit is a direct result of how busted Sony's online network appears to be, and I just described some of the issues you'll likely be facing later this month. Yes, it's targeted at a PC title right now (Battlefield 2142), but that's just noise. What we're really seeing with this suit are online middleware companies trying to position themselves to become the eventual defacto solution that publishers will use. Just as with web search and instant messaging, these companies are trying to get momentum and user base that will cause them to be the "PS3 online" solution of choice. And this suit is simply one of many battles we'll see in this space, especially as PC and console crossplatform connectivity becomes more important in the coming years.

[Update: Today it was announced that all PS3 online titles would use a single login (the "Sony ID") to login to games. I wanted to highlight that to be fair, but unfortunately it still doesn't address the majority of my concerns below. If I log in with my Sony ID, I still don't understand how I'll communicate (defined as invites, messages, chatting, etc) with friends whose IDs are on different buddy lists that are enabled by middleware companies such as Gamespy, Demonware, etc. Simply put, the value of a single login is the seamless ability to do all of the above - and that feels like a mess.

Still, I have to give some credit to Sony for beginning to move in the right direction. With this announcement, you can look ahead to PS4 and imagine a world of a single login with consistent communication via a single interface. It's unlikely to happen in this generation because Sony can't cut the legs out from under existing titles and supporting middleware companies. But this will be a good backbone to build from next time around (and hopefully keep existing IDs).]

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Comments

Brian Hoyt said:

At this point I can't wait for two weeks from today when real people will attempt all of this.  What happens when you connect a PS3 to an internet connection?  What happens when you attempt to play a game on the internet?  All these questions don't seem to have real concrete answers.  Heck I am just curious to see what happens with the service in general.  One thing Sony has in its favor is they can't possibly have more than 400K users on launch day.  Maybe the lack of systems will give them a chance to slowly build online infrastructure.

# November 3, 2006 10:11 AM

J.Goodwin said:

I think you're really stretching here as far as extrapolating ramifications for Sony from this.  Sony has a house to clean and put in order in a couple weeks, but this has about as much to do with that as the price of tea in china (perhaps less).

# November 3, 2006 10:30 AM

Ozymandias said:

Re: "I think you're really stretching here as far as extrapolating ramifications for Sony from this.  Sony has a house to clean and put in order in a couple weeks, but this has about as much to do with that as the price of tea in china (perhaps less)."

I'd be curious as to your thoughts as to why the lawsuit happened then? Appears pretty clear that it's a turf war... with Xfire trying to protect their online user base from being poached. Is it that hard to believe that those guys are smart enough to look beyond the PC and at the bigger picture?

# November 3, 2006 10:46 AM

Joseph said:

It seems like you took some commenst and ran all the way with them.

Of course you will interpet things your way to promote your console but the quote from insomina seemed to state that game developers are given the option of how much information to show in their games.

If battle field is a serious team oriented shooter I DON'T want my team mates taking Ims from people out of the game.  Wait till the map is over. Of course my opponents can take all messages they want.

It doesn't really say that Sony online is busted. It's more open allowing for publishers to add additional messaging systems. Hell, you could put a whole AIM client in if you wanted.

There is still the core Sony service but by not charging for it they have no incentive to lock down developers.

The article is really unrelated to the PS3. It would be like writting an anti-iPod piece if Phillips sued American Semiconductor over an MP3 decoder patent in a chip used on a nano.

# November 3, 2006 11:57 AM

Joseph said:

Ozy-

The lawsuit happened because companies pay lots of $$ to develop user lists. Simply having an expensive resource mined for free isn't good.

What would your opinion be if all the XboX live user information was entered into a competing services databse?

Then make it seemless for these users to access your XBL users with a similar service. People would loose the distinction between XBL and the new service. You are paying for your competition to beat you.

That is why there is a law suit.

# November 3, 2006 12:04 PM

Trellium said:

... which is why you wouldn't want to share your list of users. But, that is what the PS3 assumes will happen; that user lists will integrate from several lists, is it not?  Or is Sony implementing a proprietary user list?

You see, MS probably has it right. They have something valuable (the user/friends list) and they control it and how it evolves and how it is used.

This does not appear to be the case with Sony, hence the lawsuit.

# November 3, 2006 1:58 PM

notafan said:

Oh wow, a Microsoft employee bashing Sony, how original

*rolls eyes*

What happened to "1080p can't be possible for games"?

# November 3, 2006 3:00 PM

Julius said:

Ozy perhaps keep your mouth shut unless you don't know the full facts... like saying 1080p games couldnt be done.. oh right.. too late

# November 3, 2006 3:10 PM

dwellers said:

MS looks so desperately,lol.

# November 3, 2006 4:04 PM

Tufty McTavish said:

"If battle field is a serious team oriented shooter I DON'T want my team mates taking Ims from people out of the game.  Wait till the map is over."

And the phone ringing?

Emails arriving on the PC beside you?

The doorbell ringing?

The microwave pinging?

The wife shouting at you?

All distractions. The above argument is irrelevant I feel.

# November 3, 2006 4:15 PM

Sony Shortbus Rider said:

Good read, and excellent insight.

Sony slacktards can was poetic all they like about how this is Microsoft bashing, but the bottom line is that their middleware 'solution' just got caught with its pants down, and now it has to make up for itself in some fashion.

So in come the fancy lawyers and the three-ring circus to distract folks from the real issue here--that Sony still has its head up its ass when it comes to online play, even when they're trying to push a $600 Betamax 2.0 on the public.

# November 3, 2006 4:17 PM

infernoxxx said:

Well i agree. At first i thought this was far off but after reading some other articles i realized that Sony doesn't know what to do. It created the messenger space that was already out there and ported it to PS3. This explains why lots of games (including project 8) don't have online. So i guess we will see what happens.

# November 3, 2006 4:36 PM

Ozymandias said:

Re: 1080p for games.

I suggest you reread the posts. I actually said the sweet spot for this generation is 720p - that's where the hardware is targeted. 1080p games will be few and far between, and those that do ship will do so at the expense of game effects. I haven't seen anything yet to believe differently - even Resistance has admitted they'll be only supporting 720p (after targeting 1080p).

In the spirit of full disclosure, I'll admit I also said I didn't think we'd see any 1080p titles in the initial launch wave. It appears at least one basketball game (forget the name) will support this - though I haven't seen enough to say whether the visual quality is compromised or not. So if it makes you feel better, I'm already wrong on that one. :)

# November 3, 2006 10:51 PM

Laith said:

Its already been announced that Sony's ID is unified for all games. Insomniac's Ted Price already announced that the game can be upgraded to integrate the buddy system of the PS3. But they will release that as a patch in the future.

Also its been announced that Untold Legends PS3 is going to use the buddy system of the PS3 online system in the game, and Xfire is just an addition to it. That way it allows you to talk to PC gamers as well as gamers on your buddy list.

http://threespeech.com/blog/

"...However, disappointingly, it won’t hook into the main buddy list of the PlayStation 3 - instead you’ll need to build your own buddy list which is specific to the game.Price wouldn’t be drawn on whether this will be fixed by a future update to the game, but he made a point of saying that the buddy lists are separate “currently”, and said that “it is definitely possible to update the game via online” - so perhaps there’s hope on that front."

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/744/744047p1.html

"To put it in the simplest of ways, the Xfire functionality is a bonus addition to the existing PS Network setup (think of it as "AIM for Mages") and will allow its users to setup friends lists independent of an existing SCE-provided buddy list (and not in spite of it)."

# November 4, 2006 1:08 PM

Laith said:

Also regarding 1080p on the PS3.

NBA 07, NBA 2K7, Ridge Racer 7, Marvel Ultimate Alliance, Full Auto 2, and FNR3 are 1080p. They all look visually on par with the 360 games as well. FNR3 isnt finished yet and it already looks better than the 360 version due to development time. So thats cool how they didnt compromise visual quality in the game, yet made it look a little bit better. But NBA 07, which looks ok, is going to be blown away by NBA 2k7 visually and in gameplay as well ;]

# November 4, 2006 1:19 PM

Play Beyond Microsoft, dont play Catch Up! said:

Xbox 360 uses other middleware Network Services too.

- Xbox Live (official network platform)

- DemonWare

- Quazal

------------------------------------------------------------------

Very good news.

http://uk.ps3.ign.com/articles/744/744047p1.html

"To put it in the simplest of ways, the Xfire functionality is a bonus addition to the existing PS Network setup (think of it as "AIM for Mages" and will allow its users to setup friends lists independent of an existing SCE-provided buddy list (and not in spite of it)."

------------------------------------------------------------------

I remember when Microsoft said 1080p is useless for gaming, oh look suddenly its important, shows Sonys doing something right, i say 360 will last another 2 years then will be forgot about, PLAYSTATION 3's the real next-gen system and everyone knows it, well aleast everyone in London knows it.

I also remember when Microsoft said Motion Sensing controllers were rubbish then they go and say we may consider making a motion sensing controller in the future if not then they'll make it for the Xbox 3, basicly playing catch up to the PLAYSTATION 3.

Thats all Microsoft is doing in this gen playing catch up with PLAYSTATION.

# November 5, 2006 7:54 AM

PeterD said:

Not wishing to start an argument with the sony fans who seem to feel some weird need to justify themselves on a microsoft forum. Didn't most companies that apparently use 1080p simply create the games in 720p and say that they can be upscaled.

I seem to remember resistance has dropped to 720 and ridge racer 7 isn't 1080p either. Admittedly the sony screens at the tokyo show were 1080p capable but, they never said the games running on them were in 1080p!

# November 6, 2006 9:27 AM

PaleGringo said:

Great read, as always, Ozy.  It's very insightful to have an inside perspective on some of the things in the industry.  Should be a very interesting 14 days from here out!

Keep up the good work!

# November 6, 2006 2:47 PM

Robin said:

Isn't this doomsday scenario regarding network middleware on PS3 just an example of competition in the marketplace?

Lack of consensus over this stuff on the PC certainly hasn't put people off online gaming to any appreciable degree. Is that 'busted' too?

# November 6, 2006 5:42 PM

NextGenNeutral said:

"The lawsuit happened because companies pay lots of $$ to develop user lists. Simply having an expensive resource mined for free isn't good.

What would your opinion be if all the XboX live user information was entered into a competing services databse?"

Hmmm... I believe Microsoft grants all sorts of sites access user information that can be pulled freely from their databases. Have you not seen the various GamerTag ranking boards? Have you not seen the 360 Blog sites?

In case you havent...

http://www.top360tag.com/

http://www.xboxusersgroup.com/forums/

http://www.mygamercard.net/leaderboard.php

http://www.360voice.com/

Just a sample of the tons of sites out there that are freely using information from Microsoft to develop a unique online gaming presence far beyond just playing multiplayer games, and can be shared by all of the console owners...

# November 6, 2006 7:44 PM