Quantcast March 2007 - Posts - Ozymandias

March 2007 - Posts

Wii Music Mod

Just saw a quick article over on Kotaku about a guy (apparently named The Amazing Rolo) who modded a Wii remote to allow him to playback, control, and manipulate music in real-time. Completely useless to the vast majority of people, but it's super cool to see the innovation that's coming out of that little white controller. Well worth watching the whole clip!

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Elite Xbox 360 SKU Announced

Yep, here you go - worst kept secret ever. It'll be interesting to see how this SKU sells in comparison to both the Pro 360 SKU and the PS3 60 GB SKU. It's a lot more similar to the latter, and really, the biggest difference that might matter to people is either HDMI or interest in high-def movie playback. If you don't want either you can shift the price point significantly by picking up the Pro. For what it's worth I've had a prototype Elite for a few months now with HDMI - was helping with the testing. I honestly don't see any difference between component or HDMI visually. The biggest benefit I've found from using HDMI is simply that I can reduce the number of cables and use my A/V receiver to switch all HDMI signals. So more simplicity than visual fidelity, in my opinion. <shrug>

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More Context on Memory Reservation Issues on PS3

I wrote earlier about some of the improvements the 1.6 firmware update was supposedly going to bring to the PS3. At the time, one of the things that struck me as odd was just how much memory some of the new online features (such as the Friends list and online store in game) took up compared to what we had done with the 360. I wanted to try and compare and contrast in more detail, but couldn't remember what we had announced publicly, especially around our memory reservation. So I pinged Pete Isensee here at Microsoft and asked him what we might be able to share externally. Pete manages the XNA Developer Connection and knows exactly what we've said, when, and to who. (I wish I had his memory. Smile)

Anyway, in classic hurried Microsoft fashion, I only sent quick bulleted questions; Pete returned his usual thoughtful responses from those. With thanks to Pete, I just wanted to share some context with you on why the PS3's memory reservation numbers are so bad, and the implication that has on future games.

<Pete's Mail>

  • Can you remind me what CPU/Memory reservation we have on the 360 – and is this public? I think 32MB is memory, don’t remember CPU.

Xbox 360 reserves 32 MB for the system. The remaining 480 MB (94%) is completely available for games to use how they wish. The 32MB of system memory is used for the kernel, device drivers and the Xbox 360 Guide, which includes friends lists, voice/text messages, achievement lists, gamercards, Live Marketplace, 1-1 chat, virtual keyboard, and the music player. For CPU reservation, core 0 is completely available to the game, and the system reserves a small percentage (think single digits) of core 1 and 2.

  • If those are true, Sony’s rumored numbers seem insanely huge – am I missing something here that can help justify?

Sony’s numbers are massive in comparison. The Xbox team knew from day one of Xbox 360 system development that we needed to accomplish two things: 1) let game developers focus on writing their game, and 2) give game developers plenty of memory to make great games. A ton of work has gone into making sure the OS is as tiny as possible. Our best engineers have focused on ensuring the components that make Xbox 360 so easy to use – like unified friends lists, custom music in every game, a legally-compliant global commerce system (Live Marketplace) – all fit within 32MB, with enough space left over so we can expand features in the future without affecting any existing games. The unsung heroes of Xbox 360 are the engineers who’ve constantly tuned the memory footprint of the system.

For comparison, PS3 developers have to deal with a system that has memory split into two 256MB banks, one of which is reserved for graphics only. A large portion of both the memory banks are reserved for the system. On top of that, games that want to support other features, like friends lists or in-game commerce, take an additional memory hit. http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060413-6600.html indicates that a total of 96MB is reserved for the system on PS3. http://www.innerbits.com/blog/2007/02/27/ps3-online-background-downloading-the-sony-way/ indicates that 9MB is required for friends lists (and 60MB for in-game commerce!). If those numbers are correct, a PS3 title using friends lists functionality has 512-96-9 = 407MB available, 73MB less than an Xbox 360 title using the same features.

If Sony mandates these features in future titles (unlikely for in-game Commerce, possible for friends), game developers will cut other game features to meet a smaller memory footprint. If Sony doesn’t mandate these features, then games won’t universally support them. Either way, gamers lose.

  • What do we have “in” the Guide (already reserved) vs. what a developer would need to allocate more memory for? Thinking in-game shopping experience in particular – are we all covered in the 32 MB?

The Xbox 360 Guide already supports the Marketplace experience, so in most cases an Xbox 360 game doesn’t need to allocate any additional memory. If the title wanted to have an in-game experience, they’d just need to carve out a small chunk to manage in-game images, descriptions and prices. Games on Xbox 360 still call into Marketplace to make the final purchase, but that’s a good thing, given that no game developer or publisher is much interested in dealing with all the ramifications (legal, engineering, policy, technical requirements) of transacting purchases within a game itself.

</Pete's Mail>

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Two More Great Adventure Game Maps

First, a hand drawn Myst map. Spent way too much time in this world - probably one of the last, great, classic adventure games.

And then a map I've never seen before - an incredible map/poster of Zork II. I'd kill to have a copy to frame and hang on the wall, but it looks like I'm about 20 years too late. Anyone have any leads on finding this? I'll be forever grateful!

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Awesome Adventure Game Maps

Just came across this NeoGAF forum thread and had to point you to it to see some cool adventure game maps. You probably won't care unless you're an oldschool gamer who remembers trying to map out that #!$!% maze in Zork 1 by hand, but these brought a smile to my face. The Zelda map is amazing, and of course, I have to print the Zork map below as it's the sole reason I learned to type. Smile

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Creating the Xbox 360 Brand Identity

Came across this article from Fast Company about Microsoft working with JDK Design to come up with the Xbox 360's brand identity. I wasn't directly involved (or even indirectly, for that matter), but it's interesting to see how much of what's discussed in this article affected and guided our internal plans and discussion. Take this as an example:

First up was Michael Jager, JDK's creative director. Standing before the tribunal, Jager (pronounced like the Rolling Stone) illustrated his vision through a combination of street theater, design psychology, and cultural fluency. Comparing the original Xbox with the Incredible Hulk, Jager used a razor to slash an X in a sheet of paper and then thrust his head through the hole. "X today is all AARGGHHH!" he bellowed. Pure aggressive power. He then withdrew his head, flipped the paper, and revealed how that X could become a doorway, "an invitation to an experience." Jager acknowledged power as a critical component separating Xbox from its competitors but urged the company to see it--and express it-- differently. "Our approach was to transition Xbox from this hulk of escaping power into this quiet power that is lurking, something still incredibly dangerous but with more of an elegance and grace," he recalls. "The analogy we used was Bruce Lee." And thus were two firms felled by a single stone.

The Hulk/Bruce became common ways to discuss and promote the inhale design of the 360, including during Guide and Dashboard design and iteration. It became a common language - which is pretty fascinating when you realize that this was basically created out of the ether and yet drove product design, marketing, and even community-enabling elements of the Xbox 360. Interesting read if you have the time!

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Nintendo Rules February NPD Numbers

No other way to put it. And I'm not even talking handhelds, where the stomping was even greater. To quote:

February's NPD hardware figures continue to show Nintendo's Wii selling well ahead of the other Gen Now consoles, PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360. In February, Nintendo's $249.99 Wii sold 335k units according to the NPD group. Microsoft's Xbox 360 sold 228k units at roughly $389 per system sold across the two SKUs. Sony's PlayStation 3 sold 127k units at roughly $598 per system sold. Despite being available for ages, Sony's PlayStation 2 continues to outsell every home console not named the Nintendo Wii. In February the system sold 295k units at a per unit price of $129.80.

That's 100k units over 360, and more than 200k greater than the PS3. What I still can't wrap my head around is whether the momentum is going to continue or not. PS2 continues to sell well because it's dirt-cheap and has an incredible software library. (For that matter, if you're a huge PS2 fan and unsure where PS3 backward compatibility will go, why not pick up a spare?)

Wii has some cost benefits as well (though by the time you buy extra controllers it's really not that much cheaper), but what worries me is that it continues to only be successful as a first-party machine. Check out the top ten titles for February (as well as a few others):

Top Ten Software for February 2007:

  • 360 Crackdown 427K
  • Wii Play w/ Remote 371K
  • NDS Diddy Kong Racing 262K
  • WII Legend of Zelda: The Twilight Princess 130K
  • PS2 Guitar Hero 2 w/Guitar 130K
  • 360 Gears of War 119K
  • 360 Major League Baseball 2K7 113K
  • 360 Lost Planet: Extreme Condition 111K
  • WII Wario Ware Smooth Moves 109K
  • 360 NBA Street Homecourt 102k

    Software Tidbits:

  • Viva Pinata 18k
  • Hannah Montana DS 30k
  • Resistance: Fall of Man 70k
  • Virtua Fighter 5 53k
  • Sonic Secret of the Rings 83k
  • Rayman Raving Rabbids 60k
  • Red Steel 26k
  • There isn't a single third-party title in the top 10 for the Wii. Rayman Raving Rabbids, arguably one of the best third-party controller implementations on the Wii, sold just 60k, or just over half the worst-selling first-party Wii title. This just can't go on if Nintendo expects to get solid third-party support going forward.

    This year will be a key test. We should see Wii supplies stabilize in the coming months and everyone who really wants the console will be able to get it. And third parties will release their second and third waves of Wii titles. The hope is that they'll come to grips with the controller and release some magical games - think LittleBigPlanet sort of stuff, but for the Wii. If that doesn't happen, I think the Wii will turn into another Gamecube - a great box, some great first-party games (that make it worth having in its own right), but third-parties will likely reduce (not remove) their investment.

    The funny thing? Nintendo found a great niche focusing on fun and approachability, and are making money even now. Even if a "worst case" scenario like the above happens, Nintendo will still be very financially successful this generation and be laughing all the way to the bank. They deserve a lot of credit for taking a big risk but proving that there's an audience for lower-cost, approachable gaming. I suspect the "next" next-generation from all hardware providers will be taking that lesson deeply to heart.

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    RIP Computer Games Magazine (aka Computer Games: Strategy Plus)

    Just saw over on Gamasutra that Computer Games Magazine (also once known as Computer Games: Strategy Plus) has been shut down. I have a soft spot in my heart for the magazine because I used to write a monthly column on the online gaming market called "Over the Net" for them. This was way back in the early 90's when online gaming was still in its infancy, just after my days at TEN (Total Entertainment Network). It's sad to see another of the old school fade away.

    I'll always remember the fun we had writing about Kali (the old IPX over LAN/WAN hack to enable multiplayer on early LAN games). Back then, online game support was very, very rare... you were lucky to find LAN support. Kali addressed that problem by routing LAN packets over the net. However, it was pretty obvious that in the coming years game companies would step up and start implementing their own online solutions. And so I wrote a column titled "Kali is Dead" that inflamed the gaming community and drove a huge amount of feedback to the magazine. Good times!

    Sadly, Kali is irrelevant today in online gaming in all but fringe cases, and my article can't be found online anymore. I did see the original print magazines in the basement a while back, though. I might have to find that column again - just for grins.

    Anyway, to return to the point, I'll miss the magazine. It was one of those magazines with articles that respected the reader and actually made you think. Those are getting rarer and rarer these days - and for some reason, they're now almost all British. Guess if someone has had plenty of practice with the English language, it's you Brits. Even if you can't spell the King's Language correctly anymore. "Theatre?" "Favour?" Bah. Wink

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    Rumored Improvements to the PS3 Online Experience

    There's an interesting series of articles over at innerbits discussing rumored improvements to the PS3 online interface - aka the 1.60 firmware upgrade. It's a good read, and if real, will help the PS3 quite a bit toward being a gaming system capable of supporting an online community. That said (and you knew this was coming), it should also be pretty obvious that Sony made a fundamental mistake when designing the PS3 that is going to impact their plans this entire generation.

    Simply put, the mistake is that Sony did not chose to reserve sufficient resources of both memory and CPU time to run their XMB bar (aka community interface) over any application. Instead, it appears Sony permanently reserved some memory (64 MB if I recall correctly), and 1 SPU. In addition, they notified developers that they could take over another SPU at any time if needed.

    What this effectively does is cause developers to have to make decisions whether or not to support a feature (and allocate memory to it). And unfortunately, memory is pretty tight on consoles (all consoles) in the first place. Add to that the fact that memory requirements for some of these features are pretty high, and I struggle to believe we'll see some of these features in many games at all, much less consistently across the platform. Here are some examples (with comments on each):

    Background Downloading:

    On the PS3, when you enter a game, your downloads will be paused and queued up, to be restarted later when you exit back to the XMB. The reason for this is that the PS3 needs extra system resources (primarily memory) to do background downloading, and as such could affect game play.

    New APIs were discussed which allow background downloading during less resource intensive sections of a game (such as the front end menu), but such functionality will only be considered once the 1.60 update is out the door. Even so, games would have to allocate extra memory need to be able to support this.

    [The Xbox is able to do this because we can use reserved memory/CPU time. From the game's perspective, it never existed in the first place, so it's never lost.]

    In-game Purchases:

    This new API will offer developers a greater flexibility for marketing their own downloadable content from within their own game. The only downside to this new API is that it will require approximately an extra 60 MB of memory to be made available to the OS. The memory requirement seems quite hefty, but we should also remember that such an interface would be integrated into the front-end menus of a game, which should use up less memory anyways and therefore pose less of a challenge to developers.

    [60 MB is pretty brutal. Remember, the PS3 has 256 MB of main system RAM. It's true this shouldn't be a problem to find at a game menu, but if you want to enable any sort of interesting in-game, instant gratification purchases developers will need to figure out what, if anything, you can temporarily dump out of memory. I expect we'll see a lot of main menu stores.]

    In-game Friends List:

    In other good news, which might mean increased adoption of this feature from developers, the extra memory needed to support the friends list system utility has been cut down from 16 MB to a more manageable 9 MB.

    Unfortunately, cross-game invites will still not work as of 1.60. While players will be able to message each other from within games from 1.60 (in the games that support it), the issue of booting up a different game and then passing on the invitation has not not been resolved. Sony will essentially need to create a new TRC guideline for games to support this. Sony is working on several potential solutions, but in the meantime, this new feature is unlikely to show up for quite a while, and certainly not in the 1.60 update.

    [The size reduction is good news - it means some games may support the Friends List in games. What will be interesting to see is if Sony mandates this via their TRCs (or Technical Requirements for Certification). If they do, every PS3 game going forward just lost almost 10 MB of system RAM that can't be used for game purposes. For what it's worth, I think the cross-game invite problem is solvable, even with their current architecture.]

    Cross-game Voice Chat:

    Cross-game voice chat (or game-agnostic voice chat) is another feature now in jeopardy due to lack of planning. As of now, there isn’t even a scheduled time plan for implementation, meaning this feature is unlikely to appear before the summer, and potentially never. The issue again is that it places significant requirements on both processor and memory, which would have to be requisitioned from the game currently being played.

    [I'm not surprised as universal voice chat was one of our bigger challenges to fit into reserved system resources. Not having planned ahead makes it that much harder - I don't expect we'll ever see this unless Sony mandates another TRC... which will also impact every game hard.]

    This quote summarizes the issues listed quite well:

    The only way such functionality is going to get implemented is if Sony puts their foot down, provides the functionality and makes it a requirement for each game to support these features. Sony needs to do this because developers have no vested interest in creating a uniform experience for the end user across all the games on the platform. Sony would be the only one primarily profiting from this as the users would be sure to welcome a consistent interface of fundamental OS features across all games.

    Another rock and a hard spot to be in. And yes, I still see a price cut coming this year.

    <rant>

    You want to know the absolutely most frustrating thing about this? This could have all been avoided had the PS3 not been rushed to market. I can tell you from personal experience all of these traps were things the Live and Platform teams thought about and planned ahead for... which is why we're able to deliver the experience we are now. There's no reason Sony could not have done the same - and as a gamer (and not a Microsoft employee), it frustrates the living hell out of me. Right... enough said.

    </rant>

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    Quick Thoughts on Sony's GDC Keynote

    Sony Home looked quite interesting, but there will be some growing pains. The idea of 3D trophies is nothing more than an evolution of achievements, though without the concept of Gamerscore. Phil mentioned there will be an SDK for game developers to enable this feature, but it's unclear whether it'll be a requirement or not. My guess is that it will, though obviously already released games won't necessarily take advantage of it.

    The larger 3D spaces look fun, but I'm not sure they'll be as compelling as the individually personalized apartments/lounges. I'm just not sure I want to walk my way from game to game, or chat with random 3D avatars of people I don't know. Sure, you'll probably have ways to warp from point to point, but this feels a bit unbaked to me. That said, the ability to personalize your personal space (or apartment) was very nicely done - I'm looking forward to playing with that! I can easily imagine inviting people into my house to chat, jumping into games together from that meeting point, etc. However, one big area that's unclear is how games will interact with these spaces. Can a game create content that I can unlock or purchase for use in this space? Will games be required to have those 3D achievements so I can depend on having a flow of content? Lots of interesting questions to resolve there.

    I really liked the publisher spaces - basically private lounges that a publisher can create and allow people to visit. It's a great way to give publishers and developers a "storefront" in the PS3 online network (whether or not they choose to sell content). Phil mentioned there'd also be an SDK to enable this aspect.

    Somewhere in there was a quick reference to Playstation EDGE, which is the same technology I mentioned yesterday. Appears to be Sony's developer support creating tools to better enable developers to take advantage of the PS3 platform. One tool (the name of which I forget) appears to be a PIX clone, allowing developers to profile the RSX. Also looks like they're releasing optimized libraries to help developers use the cell and SPUs - make sense! Will be very interesting to see if this helps move the development-ease needle.

    Singstar looked like more Singstar - still cool, still a great broadening app, but also still not going to sell a $600 console, much less a $800 console (in Europe, where Singstar will initially be available).

    The big hit was Little Big Planet. I kid you not when I say it's the first time I've ever seen a Playstation game have that "Nintendo Magic" that we all love. Although the core mechanic is basically an Incredible Machine clone with updated graphics, physics, and co-op... what more do you need? This is one of those games that describing just won't do justice, so I'd suggest you watch the videos when they get out there (any minute now, I'm sure). Send me the YouTube link and I'll post it. Don't take the fact that I wrote so little about the title as any sort of negative aspect - it just really is one of those titles you have to see in action to understand. I will say that out of all the announcements at the show, it was this title that had the crowd cheering. Gotta say I agree - this game (not Singstar) may start selling some PS3s.

    There are issues Little Big Planet will have to address, however. Once you start allowing users to create content from any source, including images or pics taken from the video camera, you have plenty of opportunity for abuse. Phil didn't make any reference to how they'll address this area. The recommendation, rating, and referral of content from the game was also very cool, but this was hand-waved to as a video clip, and it's pretty obvious this is also another area that's not baked. (And it's disappointing that this capability appears built into only the game, and isn't built into the system. That's where every platform will need to go if they're serious about UGC sharing.)

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    Sony Stepping Up at GDC?

    Not too much of interest yet as the main show doesn't start until tomorrow. I've been hitting some of the GDC Mobile and Serious Games sessions today as well as catching up with folks.

    About the most interesting thing I've seen so far is that Sony appears to be really trying to step up their developer relations and tools support. There are banners everywhere promoting Sony's developer relations - including some highlighting that they are hiring to bolster those efforts. Some interesting sessions as well - I'll definitely be curious to see what these new EDGE tools look like, and how they compare to Microsoft's XNA efforts:

    Presenting PLAYSTATION® Edge: Advanced Graphics Tools and Technologies for PlayStation 3 Development
    Speaker: Mark Cerny (Cerny Games), Jon Olick (Lead Programmer, Naughty Dog), Vince Diesi (Principal Programmer, SCE Worldwide Studios)
    Date/Time: Wednesday (March 7, 2007)   2:30pm — 3:30pm
    Location (room): Room 135, North Hall
    Track: Programming
    Format: 60-minute Lecture
    Experience Level: All
    Session Description
    Three first party technology teams within Sony -- the WWS Europe Advanced Technology Group, WWS America ICE team, and WWS America Tools and Technology group -- have combined to create PLAYSTATION® Edge, a set of cutting edge technologies for imminent release to all PlayStation 3 developers. Rather than an overarching engine, these teams have chosen to create specialized systems that demonstrate best practices of SPU and RSX utilization. A unique tool for RSX performance analysis, extensively used in the tuning of first party titles, will also be presented.
    Idea Takeaway
    This session is intended for programmers creating PlayStation 3 content.
    Intended Audience
    Attendees will learn about the new PLAYSTATION® Edge tools and technologies for PlayStation 3.

    Will also be attending Phil Harrison's keynote tomorrow morning. All sorts of unsubstantiated leaks out there, and it'll be interesting to see how accurate they are!

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    Rumble Support is back for the PS3 (Oh, and Kotaku)

    Appears Sony finally bit the bullet and paid up to Immersion.

    The cost of manufacturing the PS3 is a huge problem for Sony. When we look at best-case scenarios for the PS3 business it's quite obvious that there's nowhere near as much money to be made over the life of the program (as compared to PS2) due to those costs. Blu-Ray is a big bet to offset that, but if Blu-Ray fails, the PS3 P&L is in big trouble.

    There have been plenty of exterior hints to this issue for quite some time. Non-bundling of a high-def cable is a minor example (could easily save tens of millions over life of program). Removal of hardware-enabled backward compatibility is another. And the attempt to not support rumble in the PS3 program (and have to pay royalties to Immersion) is yet another.

    What we don't know is what drove the settlement. My best guess is that the case wasn't going well for Sony around back-royalties for the PS2 program. Reading the tea leaves, they could see they'd be paying up for that, and when you add in the almost universal pressure from gamers and the press to support rumble they probably figured they might as well go all the way. The interesting question is what happens next.

    Sony's already getting flack for removing features (such as hardware-enabled backward compatibility) before they're even finished launching worldwide. Now we're in a situation where there's yet another feature that early adopters could be missing out on. This assumes, of course, that Sony releases a new rumbling version of the controller in the coming year - and I think it's pretty likely. Game developers have been asking for this support since day one, and as soon as it's in the PS3 SDK they'll enable it in their games. (Why not? In many cases the work is already done for the 360 version.) Consumers will buy the new controller to play with rumble support. And ironically, Sony "wins" and has a new peripheral to sell... and one that will likely cover the costs of the settlement within a few years.

    All that said, I just wonder why they didn't pay up at the beginning before launching and save themselves the pain of flagellating early adopters yet again. Probably a case of believing the brand would carry them through.

    Anyway, on a different topic, a bunch of you have written asking what I thought of the whole Sony/Kotaku dustup. I didn't write about it because, frankly, it was just dumb. While there's a fair point about having a relationship where a company can share information with the press and have reasonable expectations about it not being shared until the time is right, that expectation just doesn't apply to information received outside of those channels. Sony should have simply "no commented" it and ignored it, even if it was 100% true. The story would have faded away, been "OMG confirmed!" next week at GDC, and in the end, Sony would have gotten an extra week of positive press coverage. Trying to shut down the story was just embarrassing, and I think Kotaku did the right thing. That said, I have to say I'm impressed by how quickly Sony backed down and basically apologized. They're learning - six months ago the company would have put their head in the sand and tried to bluff their way through. There's hope for the future.

    [Edit: brainfart, and erronously had Joystiq instead of Kotaku throughout the article.]

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    [Edit] UK PS3 Preorders do indeed appear to be slow...

    ... as we discussed in this post earlier.

    Received my daily update from gamesindustry.biz discussing backward compatibility changes in the PS3, and how Europeans were getting the short end of the stick. Good read, but I found one paragraph particularly interesting (bolding my emphasis):

    This latest debacle over backwards compatibility simply adds to a long list of woes which Sony faces - a litany of PR problems which are winding their way through the mainstream press, no longer confined to the specialist media. In America, reports of PS3 units sitting on shelves unsold are rife, and SCEA's public firefighter Jack Tretton has lost vast amounts of credibility for his much-derided attempts to claim otherwise - with his statements having done little but fuel hostility towards the platform and the company. Here in the UK, the official line is that PS3 pre-orders are remarkably high; but with PS3 bundles being downgraded in price already, it doesn't take the flood of anecdotal reports to the contrary which we've seen from retail insiders in the last week to see that this claim is on shaky ground.

    Appears the press in the UK are hearing that those claims aren't quite as high as retailers might have liked you to believe. Not a terrible surprise, of course. But this is yet another indication that a price cut is likely this year for the PS3. Mark my words (and earlier prediction): $100 off PS3 by Thanksgiving.

    [Edit: added link to full article.]

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    Games for Windows - LIVE Beta

    One of the areas I've been spending a lot of time on over the last year is Games for Windows - LIVE (once known as "Live Anywhere" or "Live on Windows"). As I've written before, I'm actually pretty hyped about the long-term potential of where this can take the game industry (overly-dramatic as that may seem). Here's your chance to sign up for the beta and check out the very first stages and give us your input! Definitely tip of the iceberg, but man... there's a lot of ice under that water. Smile

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